“a guy called a 5bb raise from the small blind vs two players with 86s and the flop came 457 rainbow.”
I feel like a long walk around the block is in order
POOL Discussion Thread
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I’ve been getting pretty good volume on PokerMelee lately, and in this time I’ve come across several neat postflop spots I wasn’t too confident or comfortable in. The site has been a great way to improve my game, and I was hoping to learn even more by starting some discussion on the forums. So here goes! I’ll go through my ideas about how I played one hand from a recent pool match. I’d love to hear your thoughts, especially if you’d approach the situation differently than I would. If this is popular, I can try to post new hands and analyses each day to get some discussion going.
It’s folded to Gramma who opens the button and I’m dealt K9s in the small blind. I play 3-bet or fold from this position and while this hand is on the cusp of my 3-betting range, I default to playing it vs most button opens.
The flop is low but connected enough to considerably equalize equities. We can both have all the sets and most combos of two pair (Gramma might have 86s while I don’t), so I lose the nut advantage. Because of these factors I think I should be checking this flop a ton even as the preflop 3-bettor, and I opted to check my entire range here, which although probably suboptimal I imagine isn’t a big mistake. If I did want to have a betting range my hand definitely makes some sense as a bet with the big side of an open ender and a backdoor flush draw.
On the 4d turn, neither of us should have many straights as the only 5x I have here is 65s and A5s (I’m folding 55 pre), and I imagine Gramma is betting plenty of 5x on the flop. Since I procedurally checked flop I can still have the sets, two pair, T9s, overpairs, and plenty of other hands strong enough to bet for value, I elected to start bluffing with my hand. My best bluffs here should be diamonds and 9x, and because of the numerous strong hands I have I think I should be betting K9s at a high frequency. Looking back, I wouldn’t mind an overbet, repping two pair/sets/straights, because I can’t think of too many value hands outside 7x/8x that really want to use a smaller size. Maybe overpairs are too weak to overbet on such a connected board, even though neither of us hits it that often?
Where I felt lost is after the diamond rolled off on the river. I don’t think this card is especially great or bad for me. Gramma will definitely have some flushes that called turn in position, but otherwise it feels hard to have many Jx that calls a turn bet. Regardless, the weaker part of my value range may want to slow down and check river. I feel pretty good value betting a straight or set here and I’ll have flushes myself, but AA-QQ and even something like 87s might prefer to play as a check call, and some of my worse one pair hands can look about check folding. During the hand I didn’t want to bluff a hand without a diamond. However, unless I decide to airball bluff something like KQ or AQ on the turn, I’m not really sure how many single diamond hands I will have here. So looking back, I think I need to be firing all of my A9s/K9s/Q9s on the river. My blockers aren’t great, but when the river improves so many of my bluffs I probably can’t be so picky. It’s also worth considering turning showdown value into a bluff here on such a wet runout, so maybe something like TT/99 with a diamond or 98s should bluff river, but I’m not sure how often those hands should be betting turn in the first place.
After I check river, I don’t see anything to do except check fold. Check raise excites me, but even I’m not that maniacal.
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@Insurrection been contemplating this a bit, there’s something I don’t like about the check bet check line in particular, I think it’s because it seems worse than bet bet bet, check bet bet, bet bet check, check bet bet, and bet check bet because it’s allowing the easiest showdown for all Gramma’s 1 pair hands (and maybe even some A highs) since you’re always getting called 1 street by those hands. I think I’d even prefer check check check over check bet check as K high even has some very very marginal showdown value (Q9s,QTs,32s) and I think you’re mainly folding out these hands when you do get a fold w. a single bet.
Interesting hand, insurrection.
876r has to be one of the worst flops for you. Based on my range assumptions, this flop equalizes the range/nut advantage significantly.
I like your rangecheck on the flop; I tend to play these textures the same way. I ran this through GTO+ and surprisingly it bets this flop quite aggressively. However, nodlocking the range-check doesn’t lose significant EV and is probably much easier to play from a practical standpoint.
The 4d on the turn has to be one of the worst cards in the deck for you. I think gramma will have much more robust equity on this turn. Your overpairs, which comprise most of your value, are significantly worse on this runout. The solver mostly checks this turn. That said, I think your hand makes a good bluffing candidate for a tight polarized range. I like your sizing here. Overbet is never used when the SPR is this shallow.
The river is just a give up imo. You should have some diamond blocker hands that can bluff this river, and if not you might wanna revise your turn bluffs. Your hand doesn’t really have any SDV, but you’re going to have enough air here that this hand should probably just check-fold.
Well played hand. I think check-raising instead of leading the turn is an easier strategy to implement though.
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Interesting stuff. Is the 4d significantly worse than a low blank turn? I figured the four-straight board wouldn’t be super relevant given this action and in both cases I’ll just have a ton of overcards. Curious to see how often Gramma is meant to bet this flop when checked to but I’m assuming not a ton given I’ll have a protected checking range. I was thinking about using this hand as a turn check raise during the writeup, but I’m not too sure which value hands I’d prefer to play this way. Maybe overpairs or a 5x straight that already has the board locked up? Given the snapshot you shared, it seems this turn could be simplified to a second range check, which feels super counter-intuitive to me but maybe I’m not appreciating how little both players bet on these equalizing boards.
Also, which offsuit single diamond hands is the solver bluffing the turn with? The most obvious combo is AT and then probably KJ/KQ, but I’m imagining AK/AQ are also betting turn at a low but not nonzero frequency.
Good thoughts so far from @C4pAble and @Gambit. For me, I am betting this flop every time with K9hh. I am good with the 3b pre, and then I’d c-bet this flop always - especially with the backdoor hearts. I’d probably check the 4d turn for a couple reasons: 1) I think by betting again on this turn you become more weighted toward hands that are unlikely to win at showdown/semi-bluffs and have fewer over pairs and 2) I think Gramma will pot-control the turn a lot, allowing you to see the river for free and have an easy decision. I like checking this turn with my entire range - and then working in some folds, calls, and raises. As played, I think this is one of the worst rivers, so I am just check folding K9hh.
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I ran the sim with a few different flop strategies and different range assumptions, and in all cases the 4d is the worst card in the deck for your range. Sometimes the board just runs you over lol.
In equilibrium both players bet this flop aggressively, about 66% of the time (to my surprise). But if you’re range-checking Gramma should play extremely cautiously and check back about 3/4 of his range. Here’s the “GTO” flop strategy, and the ranges I used:
For diamond turn bluffs the solver seems to like ATo/AJo the most. Honestly your value range is so tight you can be super picky with your bluffs. I think having some diamond bluffs is important so that you have good bluffing candidates on the river when the FDs gets there.
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Nice analysis guys, great to read. Surprised a couple of you don’t bet this flop aggressively as the 3-bettor, would love to understand why that’s surprising to you. With K9 that’s a 100% large c bet for me.
Also here’s an amusing hand 
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U2 B battlin’ 
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That was a fun one, haha
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@Insurrection - hahaha - had to mentally prepare myself for maximum shame before pressing call
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Hey guys, I introduced some of the guys from the RvR discord to melee, so there’s some fresh blood in these pools
Is there a discord server or something like that for melee?
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@Gambit no discord is the RvR one pretty active? I suppose we could create one if there’s interest… also feel free to talk shit in this thread - I think that’s what most of us do
And best of luck to the new aspirants 
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Me: wow I’m playing great today
Also me:
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Let he who hath not sat down at a table irl and lost $239k cast the first stone!
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